FIt was during the pandemic that Portugal – and the world – got to know Admiral Henrique Gouveia e Melo, a figure in camouflage who was, to a large extent, responsible for the high level of success of the vaccination campaign against Covid-19 on national soil. With his growing popularity, assumptions also arose regarding a possible presidential candidacy which, after several “no’s”, “no’s” and requests to be given a rope to hang himself, if he went down that path, came to materialise.
By the hand of journalist Valentina Marcelino, “Gouveia e Melo – As Razões” is divided into three moments – “The Man”, “The Military” and “The Candidate” –, tracing an x-ray of the origins, thoughts and ideas of the admiral, who debuts in the Portuguese political arena as a candidate in the race for Belém. It even explains the turning point that transformed the “nim” into a resolute “yes”, and which, in the meantime, led the admiral to accuse the Lusa agency for publishing news that was “false and suffering from an unacceptable lack of rigor”, as to the reasons that made him leave the rope in a corner.
The deputy director of Diário de Notícias (DN) granted the News by the Minute a glimpse behind the scenes of the great interview with the officer, who “really likes to talk” and “explain his points of view in great detail”, having realized that the reservist “is, essentially, a very pragmatic person, [que] want to identify solutions […] and believes that there are solutions to all problems”. “Gouveia e Melo – As Razões” is, therefore, the journalistic contribution of Valentina Marcelino “to provide information to people, to decide and choose with knowledge of the facts”, highlighting that several “are a little surprised by some revelations”.
I confess that, from what I have seen in the debates, [Gouveia e Melo] is different from that admiral I had in front of me when I interviewed him
How did this challenge arise and why did you decide to embrace it?
The challenge to do this great interview came from an invitation from Porto Editora, from editor Henrique Pinto de Mesquita. They realized that he had already done at least two interviews with the admiral, at TSF-DN and at DN itself, before announcing himself as a candidate. I also normally cover the Defense area. It was a pre-campaign period and I did not want, in any way, to be associated with any candidacy, or they might think that this was a book supporting the admiral or whatever. Putting the pros and cons on one side and the other, I thought there were more pros, mainly because it was a new political actor; We already knew the others from the political scene.
I also had a lot of questions, which everyone asked, about what he thought of this and that, and I wanted to know a little about his journey, – from the experience he had in Mozambique, where he was born, and his time in Brazil, where he also studied –, to understand how this had helped shape who the admiral became and all the decisions he made throughout his life. I thought it was interesting and, from a journalistic point of view, it was important. It would be my contribution to providing information to people, which is what we do, so they can decide and choose with knowledge of the facts.
And did you notice differences between this admiral you met and the presidential candidate?
I confess that, from what I have seen in the debates, [Gouveia e Melo] He’s different from the admiral I had in front of me when I interviewed him. But it is also understandable, because the circumstances were different, the pressure was different. The admiral is a person who really likes to talk, he likes to explain his points of view in great detail; I already knew this even before doing this interview, which went relatively smoothly because of it. Of course there were some pre-defined themes and some questions, but I ended up not even following a script, because the conversation was always very natural about the various topics that I thought worried people the most. And now, the admiral I’m seeing in these debates is a more tense and restrained person. I don’t know what will happen from now on, but it doesn’t even seem like the same person, in fact.
I don’t remember anyone who had achieved that popularity for a feat that wasn’t political, it was about saving lives. And, in fact, he was considered a hero. I remember that wherever you went with him, people came up to him to ask for autographs.
And he’s a little more on the attack.
Yes, he is in the political arena, isn’t he? The political arena is for lions, as we say. He has to enter that arena and, probably, he understands that he must be on the attack. I don’t know if it has worked or not – there are different opinions on that –, but you can see that he is a person who needs time to express his ideas.
Going back to the times of the pandemic, what, in your opinion, explains why Gouveia e Melo was seen from practically the beginning of the Covid-19 vaccination task force as a potential presidential candidate and the same did not happen with Marta Temido, then Minister of Health, and Graça Freitas, then director-general of Health? Could there have been a complex at play in the search for a hero in a terrible moment in our society, which was suppressed in the figure of the admiral?
Well, in fact, that was a question that haunted him from a certain point on in the task force, especially when it was realized that Portugal was achieving results [na vacinação]. Even before he was appointed, I was already following all the work that the Armed Forces were doing, and he was responsible for that planning. We cannot forget that it was a moment of great vulnerability for everyone. People felt in his figure, that he was wearing camouflage, that he was someone who knew what he was doing – and that what he was doing was working. From that moment on, his popularity skyrocketed and led to people starting to ask this question, but I think it was due to the circumstances at the time. I don’t remember anyone who had achieved that popularity for a feat that wasn’t political, it was about saving lives. And, in fact, he was considered a hero. I remember that, wherever you went with him, people came up to him to ask for autographs.
From what I saw, he didn’t think about it [em ser candidato presidencial]at all. I didn’t think so because, as you can see in the book, I always wanted to be in the military. Since he was 17 years old, this was his goal: to finish his career as a general officer in the Navy. But then, after a certain point, the insistence was so much that he began to put this idea in his mind; although it has not made a decision until September 2024.
Picking up precisely on that point, I know you’ve already commented on this issue, but I can’t help but address it. Gouveia e Melo accused Agência Lusa of publishing false news about him, regarding the moment he decided to run for office. Lusa, for its part, rejected and repudiated the accusations. What is your view on this? Are there those who are right and those who are wrong or is it a gray area?
Of course. I think Lusa made a legitimate interpretation of his words, not quoting his words. Lusa does not say that he said he had decided to run because the President of the Republic did not want to. Lusa doesn’t write that. Taking this statement into account, Lusa saw the news in question, and the news in question talked about this. Lusa interpreted that this was the reason, but he explains it very clearly in the answer he gives me and does not even mention the President of the Republic. What he says is that, for him, it was neither bearable nor acceptable that they were saying that he was blackmailing the Government to stay in the Navy, namely to have more resources and more investment.
He understood that it was a matter of honor and knew that, at that moment, he was unable to continue, because he would think that, if he continued, it was because the Government had given in to blackmail, which made the relationship of institutional trust very complicated. I believe that, taking into account all the history and all the pressure I had had during all those months, I would end up making that decision. But, as he says, – and this is what I mean by opening the book –, he could have stayed in the “very good” and reached the top of his career, because he could have been the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces (CEMGFA) and, in fact, he chose something completely uncertain. He chose uncertainty.
Cover of the book “Gouveia e Melo – As Razões”© Reproduction/Porto Editora
The polls are worth what they are worth, but what is certain is that Gouveia e Melo has been sinking in voters’ favor. How do you explain this? Could it be related to the previous issue of the hero myth, which ended up unraveling as the admiral shared his opinions?
There are a lot of people who are wondering about this. Right now, there are more candidates than there were at the beginning of the year, or than there were when he started to be announced, or when he started to take part in the polls. Therefore, it is normal for the vote to be a little diluted across all candidates.
On the other hand, we cannot forget that polls are also carried out based on samples whose people’s profiles have to do with their intention to vote for certain parties. Since he is not linked to any party, I think it will not be strange that he no longer has a vote. Regardless, people are also becoming informed about the options and positions of the various candidates, and it is legitimate for them to think that he is not the right candidate and that others are better than him.
Gouveia e Melo shared with you that he believes he will win the elections in the first round. Isn’t this the arrogance with which you confronted him throughout the interview or, at least, overconfidence?
This part of the interview was recorded in May or June of this year. At that point, he was already starting to descend a little, but he still believed it was possible. Maybe if you ask him now, he’ll say the same thing too. All the candidates think they will win, some of them even in the first round. I think it has nothing to do with arrogance, but with the confidence he had at the time for these outcomes.
He is, essentially, a very pragmatic person; wants to identify solutions to problems and believes that there are solutions to all problems, in general. When you say that people are fed up with politicians, it is more in the sense that there have been problems that have been unresolved for many years and the politicians who have been in the system have not been able to resolve them.
In the interview, Gouveia e Melo mentioned several times that he was the target of a “prejudice that is still old, from the days of the PREC”, and that his “main opponent is not in the elections”. Do you think that, in fact, there is fear that an ex-soldier could arrive in Belém?
Remember that it was said by one candidate, Luís Marques Mendes, that Gouveia e Melo’s candidacy would represent a danger to democracy, and that there was a lot of talk about the fact that he was a military man, despite already being in the reserves. But I believe that this has already been overcome, it is no longer in question. In fact, he literally took off his uniform, assumed himself as a civilian candidate and had full legitimacy. Any citizen, within the criteria required by the Constitution, can run for President of the Republic, regardless of whether or not he or she was a member of the military. It is not written anywhere that someone who served the country for 45 years cannot try to serve the country in another way, in the Presidency of the Republic.
At the same time, by saying that “people are tired of traditional politicians” and that he is not “a traditional politician”, can we not deduce that Gouveia e Melo takes on similar traits to André Ventura, who says he is anti-system and seeks to distance himself from the other candidates, in favor of his “mission” of saving Portugal? Especially because, by his own admission, since the age of 17 the admiral wanted to serve the country and “contribute to something greater”, which also gives evidence of this idea of mission.
He is, essentially, a very pragmatic person; wants to identify solutions to problems and believes that there are solutions to all problems, in general. When he says that people are fed up with politicians, it is more in the sense that there have been problems that have been unresolved for many years and the politicians who have been in the system have not been able to resolve them. Therefore, he presents himself as someone who is pragmatic, who is used to solving problems, – not only is he used to it, but also enjoys doing it –, and who can make that contribution, even as President of the Republic, who does not have executive power, as we know. Gouveia e Melo understands that it is possible, on the part of the Presidency of the Republic, to be able to influence the executive branch to resolve these problems, and sees that Portugal can be governed either by a center-right government or by a government from the center; These are two options that are legitimately enshrined in the elections.
He doesn’t get any closer and makes a big point of distancing himself from André Ventura, but also from the extreme left. When he says he is a person from the center, he is literally a person from the center, because he seeks many positions more to the Right and other positions more to the Left. And when he says he is from the center, he means it in this pragmatic sense; It’s not for ideological reasons. I think he is quite free from ideological ideas, because the focus is on solving problems and helping to solve problems.
Regarding this issue, Gouveia e Melo considered that “it is not enough to just criticize – it is necessary to find workable solutions”. In your opinion, are the admiral’s ideas feasible, or are they just commonplaces, perhaps to please various segments of the population?
No, I don’t think they are [lugares-comuns]. When he shares an idea, he really thinks and believes that it is capable of being implemented, regardless of whether he later succeeds or not. When we explored the issue of vaccination, there were many problems at the time, in terms of functioning, organization, etc. And he – not alone, but with his entire team – managed to show that the Portuguese, the system and the public administration are capable of working miracles, practically, right? It’s a person who believes in that, and that’s what he did in the Navy, or tried to do. He believes that it is possible to adapt this methodology to solve not all, but some of the country’s most important problems; or, at least, influence and help them to be resolved.
At one point, he mentioned that Gouveia e Melo told him, and I quote: “This is not an interview, Valentina, this is an interrogation, an x-ray of my head and my soul.” Do you agree with this reading? Were there any questions left unasked?
I think this is almost the end. In fact, there were many questions; there are 236 pages of interviews. He often had that expression, but there were still many questions to be asked, because all things have a timing. What I thought was important at the time, I asked. However, in September, I still tried to update some themes, – especially because 80% of the book was already in the reviewer and I could no longer change it –, but, perhaps, if I did the interview today, I would already have other questions to ask. That’s part of it, we always have the current situation on top of us.
What would I ask you right now?
What would I ask you? I think that, by chance, I didn’t go much deeper into this topic, and it was very important for him to say specifically what he was willing to change in the Constitution.
He was perfectly aware [do escrutínio]but he also told me that one of the reasons why he accepted was because he was aware that he needed to have time to explain his ideas, talk about himself, about what worries him, in direct speech, without interpretations
And with the book out there, what feedback have you received? Do people feel more enlightened?
People who read it and consult me say yes; Some people are a little surprised by some revelations that are described there, that they didn’t know about him. In general, people feel more enlightened. It’s normal. Without wanting to underestimate this book, Porto Editora also published a biography of Gouveia e Melo, written by Vítor Matos, and there is also another book about the admiral. I think that, at this moment, the admiral is capable of being the person who has the most books published about him; there is no lack of information. I think he is one of the most scrutinized people of all the candidates.
Couldn’t that work against him?
Yes. He himself told me that, and I told him that what is written there will be useful for me and other journalists to scrutinize him in the future, whether he is elected or not. There are positions on various topics and, in a while, when I talk about them, I will see what I said at this point. If there is a contradiction, we know it is news. He was perfectly aware of this, but he also told me that one of the reasons he accepted was because he was aware that he needed to have time to explain his ideas, to talk about himself, about what worries him, in direct speech, without interpretations. He keeps to himself a lot, he often says things that end up out of context and then it seems like he said the opposite of what he really meant. This was a way for him, in direct speech, to explain how he thinks others see him and what his objectives were with this candidacy.
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